Plurality Continued

The writer takes his thinking a little too far and contradicts scripture when he states “…they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate…”  

The writer concludes by saying:   

If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem either because in John chapter one, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father). In verse 14 it says the Word became flesh. In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then, refers to the Father, and the apparent contradiction is easily resolved, especially when this is examined in the light of Jesus' words in John 6:46 where He said that no one has ever seen the Father. Therefore, Almighty God was seen, but not the Father. It was Jesus before His incarnation. There is more than one person in the Godhead and the doctrine of the Trinity must be true. 

Wow…and he says Oneness people contradict themselves….!  He just disqualified his own statements!

This writer’s explanation:  “…they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate…” and “It was Jesus before His incarnation”, and his conclusion based upon these statements that the “doctrine of the Trinity must be true”:  requires a far stretch of any sound doctrinal theology.  It is generally known that if you start with a faulty supposition, then you end up with faulty suppositions.  This is exactly what the writer of this article has done.  His conclusion is based upon error from the beginning.

Allow me offer the following explanation.

To conclude that the “doctrine of the Trinity must be true” by speculating that Jesus was incarnate before his incarnation is utterly ludicrous. 

Those quotes from this writer are trying to say that Jesus had a body before he had a body.   

THAT, MY FRIEND WAS NOT POSSIBLE ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES!

Let me explain by the scriptures:   

One must ask and be able to answer:  When was the WORD first “seen”?  You can speculate all you wish, but the scriptures are more than sufficient to show that it was NOT before He was born of a virgin. 

Let the Bible answer for itself!  When does the Bible say the Word (Jesus) was first seen? 

The same writer that wrote “No man hath seen God at any time…”  (John 1:18) also wrote (John 1:14) “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” 

Isaiah declared WHEN it would happen:  Isaiah 9:6    ‘For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” 

Amazingly, the writer of this Plurality study contradicts himself in that single quote above by saying “…we are seeing the Word before he became incarnate…”  

In other words, we are seeing Jesus before he became Jesus.  To put it another way”   We are seeing the Body of Jesus before he had a Body.”   Is that Ludicrous to you?  Does it sound ridiculous?   Of course it does. 

The writer plainly states “all you need to do is accept what the bible says.”  Ok, so let’s do that:  Let's completely 100%, accept what the bible says. 

The Bible says God is a Spirit.  Is that true?  Of course it is. 

The Bible says Jesus IS the WORD, has always been “THE WORD” and will always be “THE WORD”.   Is that a true statement according to scripture?  Of course it is. 

In John 1:14, though we see that the WORD became flesh.   

WHEN did the word become flesh (or gain a body)?  Was it BEFORE the Virgin Birth?  Not hardly.  The scripture doesn’t support that.   

Can you define the word ... “WORD”?  Do you believe the scriptures that call Jesus the WORD? 

Come now, reason it out by the scriptures.  Where do we first see the “Word of God”?  Genesis 1:3?  “And God did what?  He "Said"?  What is "Said"?  Do you think it could be the WORD?  Do you think that’s far fetched?  Really?  Reconcile it with these then:

Colossians 1:14-17   “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” 

John 1:3  "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." 

John 1:10  "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." 

Perhaps it would do you well to study much, much more on the Godhead. 

Do you mean to tell me that you expect me to believe that Jesus, before he became Jesus, had a full grown man’s body and appeared to Old Testament Saints? 

You mean to tell me you believe JESUS could do that, but you tell me that God could not (since you say that you believe the scriptures when they declare that no man has seen God at any time)?   

This is the danger in believing 3 persons (literal physical bodies) of God.  When you believe in 3 “persons” of God, you say that God the Father CAN be seen, but that No one ever has seen Him! (otherwise you have a contradiction of scripture that you cannot resolve)  

Then you say that Jesus was seen before he became Jesus….and you believe THAT is who the Old Testament Saints saw, yet there is NOT a single scripture to support that.

How do you come up with that statement other than pure guesswork?   It certainly is not BIBLICALLY based.

To believe that Jesus had any type of body and existed at any time as anything other than the Word of God is PURE speculation and is not what the Word of God teaches. 

Romans 1:20-21   “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

 About whom is this passage speaking “…when they knew God…”?   When did “they” know God?  It was when GOD walked the earth as a mortal man….Jesus. 

Jesus HAD NOT Become Incarnate before he became incarnate!

How then do we explain and resolve scriptures of people that saw God and the Scriptures that say no man has seen God?    Where is the resolve in the Word of God?   

Examine Moses.   How did Moses Speak with the Lord “face to face”?  (Exodus 33:11 for one example)  Who did Abraham see and speak with in Genesis 18?  Was it not the Lord God?  Yes, It was God!  Was it the Father?  Yes, it WAS the Father.  How can we prove this? 

As out writer stated in the beginning, Exodus 6:2-3 is a perfect scripture to prove this: 

Exodus 6:1-3  “Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:  And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.”

Who is speaking,  The Lord God.  What did he say?  Look at verse 3:  I AM THE LORD.   He goes on to say  I  appeared unto Abraham…. BUT (in my paraphrase) BY MY NAME JEHOVAH WAS I NOT KNOWN TO THEM.  The name JEHOVAH is the key here.  This is God the Father by any definition.

How then could God the Father appear to Abraham, to the people, and to Moses?  The writer had it correct to begin with before he got off into his Trinitarian doctrine. 

THEOPHANY….A MANIFESTATION OF DEITY IN THE FLESH.   

COULD GOD CREATE FOR HIMSELF A BODY?  You CANNOT answer NO.  YES.  GOD COULD AND DID CREATE FOR HIMSELF A BODY.  Was it Jesus?  No, absolutely not. 

Jesus was the one who was BEGOTTEN of God, NOT "CREATED BY" God as some falsely teach.  He was BEGOTTEN (Born of Flesh!)

Look at Exodus 33:18-34:8

Who had Moses been speaking to and hearing from up until this point?  Who was he dealing with?  Of course, anyone would say it was God.  How did this happen, this face to face dealing?  Do you think maybe God was clothed in a veil of flesh?  That is exactly what happened.  Read those scriptures in Exodus 33:18- 34:8, especially these:

Exodus 33:18  "And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory."

Exodus 33:20-23   "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."

What happened here?  Moses saw more than this theophany, this God robed in a fleshly body:  He saw God in all his GLORY, even if it WAS only the hinder parts (or the backside) of God. 

As the writer of this “Plurality Study” stated,  “The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says…”  Exactly.  That’s what I’ve been saying all along.   

Just what does the Bible say about Jesus?

Colossians 2:9  "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." 

Colossians 1:15  "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:..."

Hebrews 1:3  "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;..." 

1 Timothy 6:14-16  "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." 

To conclude without getting much, much, deeper….

God is a SPIRIT.  

No Man has Seen God at any time. 

No Man CAN see God except in the person of Jesus Christ. 

Jesus Christ IS the “person” of God, the express image, the likeness, and the FULNESS of the ENTIRE GODHEAD BODILY ... IN HIS BODY!   (some people even like to change that verse to say “Deity..fine…Jesus is still the fullness and the fulness dwells IN HIS BODY)

Friend, THAT is what the Bible declares. 

Don’t ever give yourself over to “speculation and guessing” . 

USE THE SCRIPTURES TO RECONCILE THEMSELVES. 

Want to know more?  Check out the Godhead.  The audio version is also available via the Media Page.

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